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	<title>Comments on: Mosque Without A Minaret Or Yet Another Idiotism By Certain Blockeahds</title>
	<link>http://www.pengovsky.com/2008/12/04/mosque-without-a-minaret-or-yet-another-idiotism-by-certain-blockeahds/</link>
	<description>sex and politics</description>
	<pubDate>Fri, 12 Mar 2010 16:22:28 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Never Underestimate The Power Of Stupid People In Large Groups &#124; SLEEPING WITH PENGOVSKY</title>
		<link>http://www.pengovsky.com/2008/12/04/mosque-without-a-minaret-or-yet-another-idiotism-by-certain-blockeahds/#comment-157282</link>
		<dc:creator>Never Underestimate The Power Of Stupid People In Large Groups &#124; SLEEPING WITH PENGOVSKY</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Apr 2009 08:54:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.pengovsky.com/2008/12/04/mosque-without-a-minaret-or-yet-another-idiotism-by-certain-blockeahds/#comment-157282</guid>
		<description>[...] religious and racial hatred which is scheduled for 27 April. Exactly two weeks from now a rally against building a mosque in Ljubljana will apparently be held in downtown Ljubljana. Choice of date is not coincidental. 27 April marks [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] religious and racial hatred which is scheduled for 27 April. Exactly two weeks from now a rally against building a mosque in Ljubljana will apparently be held in downtown Ljubljana. Choice of date is not coincidental. 27 April marks [&#8230;]</p>
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		<title>By: dr. filomena</title>
		<link>http://www.pengovsky.com/2008/12/04/mosque-without-a-minaret-or-yet-another-idiotism-by-certain-blockeahds/#comment-129958</link>
		<dc:creator>dr. filomena</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Jan 2009 20:58:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.pengovsky.com/2008/12/04/mosque-without-a-minaret-or-yet-another-idiotism-by-certain-blockeahds/#comment-129958</guid>
		<description>I must agree with Robert 100%. I do not want any of the things he mentioned happening. 

And I do not think that Islam and Europe are compatible. Islam may have been the most tolerant religion in the Balkans for centuries as far as its attitude toward other religions goes and it may have been present in Bosnia for a length of time without any problems, but I say out with Islam. Out with all religions. Out with the religion whose backward attitude to family planning is indirectly responsible for so many more deaths than the Madrid bombing lead to. Let's go back to the good old days of mysticism and our own deities! Back to pre-forceful-Christianisation times! 

Imagine no religion...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I must agree with Robert 100%. I do not want any of the things he mentioned happening. </p>
<p>And I do not think that Islam and Europe are compatible. Islam may have been the most tolerant religion in the Balkans for centuries as far as its attitude toward other religions goes and it may have been present in Bosnia for a length of time without any problems, but I say out with Islam. Out with all religions. Out with the religion whose backward attitude to family planning is indirectly responsible for so many more deaths than the Madrid bombing lead to. Let&#8217;s go back to the good old days of mysticism and our own deities! Back to pre-forceful-Christianisation times! </p>
<p>Imagine no religion&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: pengovsky</title>
		<link>http://www.pengovsky.com/2008/12/04/mosque-without-a-minaret-or-yet-another-idiotism-by-certain-blockeahds/#comment-129940</link>
		<dc:creator>pengovsky</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Jan 2009 20:31:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.pengovsky.com/2008/12/04/mosque-without-a-minaret-or-yet-another-idiotism-by-certain-blockeahds/#comment-129940</guid>
		<description>@Robert: There were "no go" zones in the not-so-distant past. Areas, which one was advised to avoid, because they were frequented by the young of non-Slovenian descent. Areas which even the police avoided because the cops were reluctant to get their ass kicked or worse. One of the areas was - believe it or not - Prešeren square after 9 PM.

Why were these kids acting the way they were? The answer of course is inclusion/exclusion. As being a Slovenian became a tangible value (so to speak), as most of ethnic Slovenians let the 19-century-style national pride flourish (as in: hey, we're Slovenians, we're waaaaay better than those Croatian morons over there), in that particular moment people of different ethnic groups entered a huge identity crisis. 

Namely: they weren't considered Slovenian. Heck, even the social sciencies fell for it and coined the term Nonslovenian (with a captial N) and it took them years to realize that it was basically racist. Being of non-Slovenian origin, they started identifying with the country of their parents' origin (usually one of the former Yugoslav republics). But they wouldn't be accepted there either, as they were consiedered "Slovenian" back there.

And so they became excluded on both ends and started making trouble. And the problem was only intensified as 200.000 refugees from Bosnia came to Slovenia (10% of total Slovenian population).

This is just to ilustrate the mechanisms at work in this patricular case.

I think the answer to your dilemma is - inclusion. Slovenian Muslims &lt;I&gt;are&lt;/I&gt; a part of our society. As Catholics, they too have those who only attend prayer on big religious holidays, those who are basically secular, as well as more devout ones. But regardless of their religious tempo, they live and work in Slovenia and most of them also hold Slovenian citizenship.

But if their Orthodox counterparts can pratice their faith in a manner they see fit, why shouldn't Slovenian Muslims be entitled to the same right? God (Allah?) knows that they paid big bucks for that particular piece of land.

Keeping a whole group of people on the fringes of society breeds resentment. Resentment breeds fundamentalism. And fundamentalism breeds fear. 

So far, Slovenian Muslims have little to be afraid of from the majority population, and I think the majority population has absolutely no reason to be afraid of Slovenian Muslims.

A mosque in Ljubljana will be long-overdue step towards further integration of Muslims into Slovenian society. If nothing else, I honestly hope that Ljubljana will get a decent &lt;a HREF="http://www.slavsofnewyork.com/2005/08/another-cevapdzinica-opens-in-queens.html" rel="nofollow"&gt;Čevapdžinica&lt;/A&gt;

@Camille: hear, hear!

@Sunshine: So? What's your point? It doesn't make it any more wrong or right if it happened 500 years ago or if it is happening today.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Robert: There were &#8220;no go&#8221; zones in the not-so-distant past. Areas, which one was advised to avoid, because they were frequented by the young of non-Slovenian descent. Areas which even the police avoided because the cops were reluctant to get their ass kicked or worse. One of the areas was - believe it or not - Prešeren square after 9 PM.</p>
<p>Why were these kids acting the way they were? The answer of course is inclusion/exclusion. As being a Slovenian became a tangible value (so to speak), as most of ethnic Slovenians let the 19-century-style national pride flourish (as in: hey, we&#8217;re Slovenians, we&#8217;re waaaaay better than those Croatian morons over there), in that particular moment people of different ethnic groups entered a huge identity crisis. </p>
<p>Namely: they weren&#8217;t considered Slovenian. Heck, even the social sciencies fell for it and coined the term Nonslovenian (with a captial N) and it took them years to realize that it was basically racist. Being of non-Slovenian origin, they started identifying with the country of their parents&#8217; origin (usually one of the former Yugoslav republics). But they wouldn&#8217;t be accepted there either, as they were consiedered &#8220;Slovenian&#8221; back there.</p>
<p>And so they became excluded on both ends and started making trouble. And the problem was only intensified as 200.000 refugees from Bosnia came to Slovenia (10% of total Slovenian population).</p>
<p>This is just to ilustrate the mechanisms at work in this patricular case.</p>
<p>I think the answer to your dilemma is - inclusion. Slovenian Muslims <i>are</i> a part of our society. As Catholics, they too have those who only attend prayer on big religious holidays, those who are basically secular, as well as more devout ones. But regardless of their religious tempo, they live and work in Slovenia and most of them also hold Slovenian citizenship.</p>
<p>But if their Orthodox counterparts can pratice their faith in a manner they see fit, why shouldn&#8217;t Slovenian Muslims be entitled to the same right? God (Allah?) knows that they paid big bucks for that particular piece of land.</p>
<p>Keeping a whole group of people on the fringes of society breeds resentment. Resentment breeds fundamentalism. And fundamentalism breeds fear. </p>
<p>So far, Slovenian Muslims have little to be afraid of from the majority population, and I think the majority population has absolutely no reason to be afraid of Slovenian Muslims.</p>
<p>A mosque in Ljubljana will be long-overdue step towards further integration of Muslims into Slovenian society. If nothing else, I honestly hope that Ljubljana will get a decent <a href="http://www.slavsofnewyork.com/2005/08/another-cevapdzinica-opens-in-queens.html" onclick="javascript:pageTracker._trackPageview ('/outbound/www.slavsofnewyork.com');">Čevapdžinica</a></p>
<p>@Camille: hear, hear!</p>
<p>@Sunshine: So? What&#8217;s your point? It doesn&#8217;t make it any more wrong or right if it happened 500 years ago or if it is happening today.</p>
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		<title>By: Sunshine</title>
		<link>http://www.pengovsky.com/2008/12/04/mosque-without-a-minaret-or-yet-another-idiotism-by-certain-blockeahds/#comment-129866</link>
		<dc:creator>Sunshine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Jan 2009 17:25:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.pengovsky.com/2008/12/04/mosque-without-a-minaret-or-yet-another-idiotism-by-certain-blockeahds/#comment-129866</guid>
		<description>Camille: To me, the sad difference is that the things you are mentioning were happening about 500 years ago, not today. :(</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Camille: To me, the sad difference is that the things you are mentioning were happening about 500 years ago, not today. <img src='http://www.pengovsky.com/blog/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_sad.gif' alt=':(' class='wp-smiley' /></p>
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		<title>By: Camille</title>
		<link>http://www.pengovsky.com/2008/12/04/mosque-without-a-minaret-or-yet-another-idiotism-by-certain-blockeahds/#comment-129777</link>
		<dc:creator>Camille</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Jan 2009 08:09:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.pengovsky.com/2008/12/04/mosque-without-a-minaret-or-yet-another-idiotism-by-certain-blockeahds/#comment-129777</guid>
		<description>Addendum: I am well aware of Islamic crusades, and I know that no religion is perfect.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Addendum: I am well aware of Islamic crusades, and I know that no religion is perfect.</p>
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		<title>By: Camille</title>
		<link>http://www.pengovsky.com/2008/12/04/mosque-without-a-minaret-or-yet-another-idiotism-by-certain-blockeahds/#comment-129776</link>
		<dc:creator>Camille</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Jan 2009 08:06:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.pengovsky.com/2008/12/04/mosque-without-a-minaret-or-yet-another-idiotism-by-certain-blockeahds/#comment-129776</guid>
		<description>Yes, I said shameful. 
I do not share your sense of some universal entitlement that pertains only to non-Muslim Slovenians. To attribute any acts of extremist Islamist aggression to the fact that mosques exist in those cities is absurd. Young Muslim men and women don't become terrorists simply because they attend mosque, as a matter of fact sometimes these young people were not even particularly religious before they took up with those cells. If you are trying to put together some simple equation of Mosque + Muslims = Terror then you better go elsewhere because I am not falling for your "new math".

As someone mentioned on television the other day, what about all the years and years of violence that were perpetuated in the name and with the support of the Catholic Church? I've never heard of Islam ever perpetuating the sort of decimation that the Catholic Church supported throughout the Americas and around the rest of the world...and those weren't even the extremists!!! Give me a break.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, I said shameful.<br />
I do not share your sense of some universal entitlement that pertains only to non-Muslim Slovenians. To attribute any acts of extremist Islamist aggression to the fact that mosques exist in those cities is absurd. Young Muslim men and women don&#8217;t become terrorists simply because they attend mosque, as a matter of fact sometimes these young people were not even particularly religious before they took up with those cells. If you are trying to put together some simple equation of Mosque + Muslims = Terror then you better go elsewhere because I am not falling for your &#8220;new math&#8221;.</p>
<p>As someone mentioned on television the other day, what about all the years and years of violence that were perpetuated in the name and with the support of the Catholic Church? I&#8217;ve never heard of Islam ever perpetuating the sort of decimation that the Catholic Church supported throughout the Americas and around the rest of the world&#8230;and those weren&#8217;t even the extremists!!! Give me a break.</p>
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		<title>By: Robert</title>
		<link>http://www.pengovsky.com/2008/12/04/mosque-without-a-minaret-or-yet-another-idiotism-by-certain-blockeahds/#comment-129759</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Jan 2009 07:15:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.pengovsky.com/2008/12/04/mosque-without-a-minaret-or-yet-another-idiotism-by-certain-blockeahds/#comment-129759</guid>
		<description>"I am glad to hear this project is still on the table and viable. I was just talking to a friend the other day about how shameful it is that the mosque wasn’t already there"

Shameful? 
Are you completely oblivous as to the situation in the rest of Europe? Does it look as if Islam and Europe are compatible?

I don't want a Madrid Train Bombing or London Subway bombings to occur in Slovenia. Or for the Slovenian flag to be burned and death threats hurled because some cartoonist drew a picture of Mohammed the wrong way. And most of all, I don't want a Slovenia with No go zones for Slovenians as is the case in many parts of France and Germany.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;I am glad to hear this project is still on the table and viable. I was just talking to a friend the other day about how shameful it is that the mosque wasn’t already there&#8221;</p>
<p>Shameful?<br />
Are you completely oblivous as to the situation in the rest of Europe? Does it look as if Islam and Europe are compatible?</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t want a Madrid Train Bombing or London Subway bombings to occur in Slovenia. Or for the Slovenian flag to be burned and death threats hurled because some cartoonist drew a picture of Mohammed the wrong way. And most of all, I don&#8217;t want a Slovenia with No go zones for Slovenians as is the case in many parts of France and Germany.</p>
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		<title>By: Global Voices Online &#187; Slovenia: A Mosque for Ljubljana</title>
		<link>http://www.pengovsky.com/2008/12/04/mosque-without-a-minaret-or-yet-another-idiotism-by-certain-blockeahds/#comment-118750</link>
		<dc:creator>Global Voices Online &#187; Slovenia: A Mosque for Ljubljana</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Dec 2008 02:30:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.pengovsky.com/2008/12/04/mosque-without-a-minaret-or-yet-another-idiotism-by-certain-blockeahds/#comment-118750</guid>
		<description>[...] With Pengovsky writes that &#8220;the city of Ljubljana is one of the few (if not only) European capital with a [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] With Pengovsky writes that &#8220;the city of Ljubljana is one of the few (if not only) European capital with a [&#8230;]</p>
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		<title>By: pengovsky</title>
		<link>http://www.pengovsky.com/2008/12/04/mosque-without-a-minaret-or-yet-another-idiotism-by-certain-blockeahds/#comment-117939</link>
		<dc:creator>pengovsky</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Dec 2008 08:05:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.pengovsky.com/2008/12/04/mosque-without-a-minaret-or-yet-another-idiotism-by-certain-blockeahds/#comment-117939</guid>
		<description>@dr. Arf: Actually, I think it's the other way around. I wouldn't be at all surprised to find out that Jarc is a practicing Muslim or at least of Muslim descent. Think Jörg Haider and his anti-gay agenda...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@dr. Arf: Actually, I think it&#8217;s the other way around. I wouldn&#8217;t be at all surprised to find out that Jarc is a practicing Muslim or at least of Muslim descent. Think Jörg Haider and his anti-gay agenda&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Dr. ARF</title>
		<link>http://www.pengovsky.com/2008/12/04/mosque-without-a-minaret-or-yet-another-idiotism-by-certain-blockeahds/#comment-117883</link>
		<dc:creator>Dr. ARF</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Dec 2008 23:50:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.pengovsky.com/2008/12/04/mosque-without-a-minaret-or-yet-another-idiotism-by-certain-blockeahds/#comment-117883</guid>
		<description>@ Dr. Fil. : My esteemed colleague and friend, you have a point. After all, you - as most people here - have a close insight into those that make up the political landscape, while I am - for now - still a foreigner. I think it's just my wariness speaking when I made the example, because people like that can stir other people's emotions to the point where someone actually commits an act of gross stupidity because their emotions get the better of them, especially where religion is concerned.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ Dr. Fil. : My esteemed colleague and friend, you have a point. After all, you - as most people here - have a close insight into those that make up the political landscape, while I am - for now - still a foreigner. I think it&#8217;s just my wariness speaking when I made the example, because people like that can stir other people&#8217;s emotions to the point where someone actually commits an act of gross stupidity because their emotions get the better of them, especially where religion is concerned.</p>
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