Comments on: Student Work in Slovenia http://www.pengovsky.com/2007/10/24/student-work-in-slovenia/ sex and politics Thu, 18 Mar 2010 23:06:27 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.3.2 By: Jene http://www.pengovsky.com/2007/10/24/student-work-in-slovenia/#comment-202799 Jene Tue, 09 Feb 2010 20:56:05 +0000 http://www.pengovsky.com/2007/10/24/student-work-in-slovenia/#comment-202799 I think it is very important for students to work during college, not just for the money, but for the experience. Graduates encounter a huge disadvantage to others who have work experience in addition to education. It can be hard for students to find a job, especially during the recession, because employers do have the option of hiring a non-student (who can work more hours), graduate, or professional. At the time I did not feel lucky to have to work since I was 16, but I realize now that I have learned a lot while working during high school and college. I am currently finishing up my BSBA and working for <a>Vector Marketing</a>. I know my experience and hard work will benefit me after I graduate. I think it is very important for students to work during college, not just for the money, but for the experience. Graduates encounter a huge disadvantage to others who have work experience in addition to education. It can be hard for students to find a job, especially during the recession, because employers do have the option of hiring a non-student (who can work more hours), graduate, or professional.

At the time I did not feel lucky to have to work since I was 16, but I realize now that I have learned a lot while working during high school and college. I am currently finishing up my BSBA and working for Vector Marketing. I know my experience and hard work will benefit me after I graduate.

]]> By: Vanja http://www.pengovsky.com/2007/10/24/student-work-in-slovenia/#comment-29578 Vanja Fri, 02 Nov 2007 09:01:22 +0000 http://www.pengovsky.com/2007/10/24/student-work-in-slovenia/#comment-29578 Sorry Alex but if we did not have the trade unions-we would have salaries of Romania-here in Slovenia. Our workers can barely make ends meet as it is, never mind loosing the only protection they still have from the greedy managers. I agree that the British system absolutely works better than Slovenian-but the blame lays mainly on employers who are greedy and incompetent and do not see employees as a long term investment. They rarely have a long term vision for the (state owned) company anyway, the trend in Slovenia is to screw the company, sell it for cheap to foreigners and pocket tons of money. Besides, the whole system is corrupt and you hardly have people on decision making places that got there on the account of their work or their abilities. Sorry Alex but if we did not have the trade unions-we would have salaries of Romania-here in Slovenia. Our workers can barely make ends meet as it is, never mind loosing the only protection they still have from the greedy managers. I agree that the British system absolutely works better than Slovenian-but the blame lays mainly on employers who are greedy and incompetent and do not see employees as a long term investment. They rarely have a long term vision for the (state owned) company anyway, the trend in Slovenia is to screw the company, sell it for cheap to foreigners and pocket tons of money. Besides, the whole system is corrupt and you hardly have people on decision making places that got there on the account of their work or their abilities.

]]> By: Alex http://www.pengovsky.com/2007/10/24/student-work-in-slovenia/#comment-28647 Alex Fri, 26 Oct 2007 16:46:15 +0000 http://www.pengovsky.com/2007/10/24/student-work-in-slovenia/#comment-28647 I'd agree with Lezalnik. The various 'benefits' are ridiculous and only encourage people to exploit the system. Why couldn't we have incentives only for the duration of your uni course? So if a course lasts three years, you'd be entitled to (some of?) these benefits for three years and no longer than that (when you're 26, you should be finishing off your doctorate if you're still at uni!). If you don't finish in three years, you should lose all perks and start paying much higher tuition fees. There's absolutely no reason why students who can't cope with uni courses should be rewarded for it. And tuition fees are in general a great idea, I think, provided that they're done in a sensible way, such as here in the UK. The home/EU tuition fee is set to about 3100 pounds (which is still heavily subsidised by the government, but is a sensible enough fee), but students only have to paying for it *after* they've got a job that pays over such-and-such an amount per year. This system is good because: - you strive harder because it's your (future) money at stake - you aim for a uni course that has good employment prospects (and not something daft like 'media studies' that no one cares about) - this would also avoid people going to university just because it's fashionable to do so even if they don't need a degree for their chosen career path - your financial situation is irrelevant because you only pay the fee after you've started earning your own money (and lots of bursaries are available for those less well-off to help pay for accommodation, food etc) Umm, that was off topic, I think. Back on track now. My university *prohibits* students from working during term time. You're expected to spend about 50 hours a week on your subject, and the university thinks there's no way you can work alongside your degree course without your academic performance suffering as a result. If you can't afford to study here, they *give* you the money, but they still don't let you work during term time. You can work during the Christmas and Easter holidays, but only if it doesn't affect your academic performance, and of course you can work over the summer. So you still have a lot of time to get some work experience, and especially during the summer you don't have any obligations (all exams are in June and if you don't pass them all the first time round, the uni kicks you out - so yay, no autumn exams to worry about!). I think this model is a lot better than the Slovene one, since students don't take over regular work during the academic year, whilst still being able to get some relevant experience through a summer placement, or of course by participating in volunteer organisations or student societies. (Of course the system is different in every university, so I can't speak for the UK as a whole. Naturally, any work you end up doing is taxed as per normal - but companies are nevertheless quite keen to take on students because they can get their pick of the very best at the end and thus end up with the top people - which is obviously good for business.) The main problem in Slovenia is with the rigid legislation on work and the unbelievable strength of trade unions (their leaders should be shot or something for all the harm they've caused). Oh, and of course the dysfunctional university model with age-old professors lecturing on wholly out-of-date topics. (At least in the natural sciences that's the case; I'm not familiar with other courses, but I suspect it's not much better.) Umm, I've re-read what I'd written and it doesn't make all that much sense. Sorry about that. Would fix it up but I have to get back to (uni) work. :( I’d agree with Lezalnik. The various ‘benefits’ are ridiculous and only encourage people to exploit the system. Why couldn’t we have incentives only for the duration of your uni course? So if a course lasts three years, you’d be entitled to (some of?) these benefits for three years and no longer than that (when you’re 26, you should be finishing off your doctorate if you’re still at uni!). If you don’t finish in three years, you should lose all perks and start paying much higher tuition fees. There’s absolutely no reason why students who can’t cope with uni courses should be rewarded for it.
And tuition fees are in general a great idea, I think, provided that they’re done in a sensible way, such as here in the UK. The home/EU tuition fee is set to about 3100 pounds (which is still heavily subsidised by the government, but is a sensible enough fee), but students only have to paying for it *after* they’ve got a job that pays over such-and-such an amount per year. This system is good because:
- you strive harder because it’s your (future) money at stake
- you aim for a uni course that has good employment prospects (and not something daft like ‘media studies’ that no one cares about) - this would also avoid people going to university just because it’s fashionable to do so even if they don’t need a degree for their chosen career path
- your financial situation is irrelevant because you only pay the fee after you’ve started earning your own money (and lots of bursaries are available for those less well-off to help pay for accommodation, food etc)

Umm, that was off topic, I think. Back on track now. My university *prohibits* students from working during term time. You’re expected to spend about 50 hours a week on your subject, and the university thinks there’s no way you can work alongside your degree course without your academic performance suffering as a result. If you can’t afford to study here, they *give* you the money, but they still don’t let you work during term time.
You can work during the Christmas and Easter holidays, but only if it doesn’t affect your academic performance, and of course you can work over the summer. So you still have a lot of time to get some work experience, and especially during the summer you don’t have any obligations (all exams are in June and if you don’t pass them all the first time round, the uni kicks you out - so yay, no autumn exams to worry about!).

I think this model is a lot better than the Slovene one, since students don’t take over regular work during the academic year, whilst still being able to get some relevant experience through a summer placement, or of course by participating in volunteer organisations or student societies.
(Of course the system is different in every university, so I can’t speak for the UK as a whole. Naturally, any work you end up doing is taxed as per normal - but companies are nevertheless quite keen to take on students because they can get their pick of the very best at the end and thus end up with the top people - which is obviously good for business.)

The main problem in Slovenia is with the rigid legislation on work and the unbelievable strength of trade unions (their leaders should be shot or something for all the harm they’ve caused).
Oh, and of course the dysfunctional university model with age-old professors lecturing on wholly out-of-date topics. (At least in the natural sciences that’s the case; I’m not familiar with other courses, but I suspect it’s not much better.)

Umm, I’ve re-read what I’d written and it doesn’t make all that much sense. Sorry about that. Would fix it up but I have to get back to (uni) work. :(

]]> By: Ležalnik pika Com http://www.pengovsky.com/2007/10/24/student-work-in-slovenia/#comment-28457 Ležalnik pika Com Thu, 25 Oct 2007 11:16:15 +0000 http://www.pengovsky.com/2007/10/24/student-work-in-slovenia/#comment-28457 It's not just costs. Another prime reason is the fact that an employer can say to a student: "We don't need you tomorrow." or "Next week we only need you on Monday for two hours." I think this is even more important for employers. A few € up or down difference in salary is not as big deal as it is to hire someone full time knowing you won't need him all the time and that you can not just say goodbye. I'm no even proposing to make regular labour market as flexible as student market since job security will go down the drains. I'm more incilned to vice versa, why is student work any different from any other type of work? The basic missunderstanding we have is why people study :D you say because of the cheap lunch coupons etc... I say to get better (and better paid) jobs and personal gratification. You have definite economical benefits is you have a diploma. You personally will have a higher salary. On the other hand, why wouldn't a full time worker that has a family and earns 600€ a month get the same benefits as students do :)? Why does he have to pay taxes from which students get cheaper meals. What's in it for him :) ? It’s not just costs. Another prime reason is the fact that an employer can say to a student: “We don’t need you tomorrow.” or “Next week we only need you on Monday for two hours.” I think this is even more important for employers. A few € up or down difference in salary is not as big deal as it is to hire someone full time knowing you won’t need him all the time and that you can not just say goodbye. I’m no even proposing to make regular labour market as flexible as student market since job security will go down the drains. I’m more incilned to vice versa, why is student work any different from any other type of work?
The basic missunderstanding we have is why people study :D you say because of the cheap lunch coupons etc… I say to get better (and better paid) jobs and personal gratification. You have definite economical benefits is you have a diploma. You personally will have a higher salary. On the other hand, why wouldn’t a full time worker that has a family and earns 600€ a month get the same benefits as students do :)? Why does he have to pay taxes from which students get cheaper meals. What’s in it for him :) ?

]]> By: Dr. Filomena » Bless You http://www.pengovsky.com/2007/10/24/student-work-in-slovenia/#comment-28450 Dr. Filomena » Bless You Thu, 25 Oct 2007 09:34:17 +0000 http://www.pengovsky.com/2007/10/24/student-work-in-slovenia/#comment-28450 [...] Speaking of work… Congratulations to Fetalij on his first full-time “regular employment” job! If you read Pengovsky’s explanation of how Slovenian employers (ok, and students) are abusing the incentive system, you’ll realize that securing a regular job must have been no small feat! Permalink [...] […] Speaking of work… Congratulations to Fetalij on his first full-time “regular employment” job! If you read Pengovsky’s explanation of how Slovenian employers (ok, and students) are abusing the incentive system, you’ll realize that securing a regular job must have been no small feat! Permalink […]

]]> By: pengovsky http://www.pengovsky.com/2007/10/24/student-work-in-slovenia/#comment-28444 pengovsky Thu, 25 Oct 2007 08:30:43 +0000 http://www.pengovsky.com/2007/10/24/student-work-in-slovenia/#comment-28444 And how do you propose to make regular labour market to become as flexible as the student one? The prime reason for employment of students is the fact that they're cheaper, because the state takes care of their social and health insurance. Re: bald and grey: As I said - benefits cease when you're 26. <I>Regardless</I> of whether you've graduated or not. So your argument is worthless in this respect. Incentives are there <I>precisely</I> to make people go to university. I mean, some people would still go to university regardless of the incentives, but most people would be sort of indecided - it's like that graph you cited during debate over at Carniola: When do you say "it simply isn't worht it". And belive me, if you're faced with a social problem, you don't exactly dwell the finer points of education and personal fulfillment. Re: Izredni študenti. I know. They're every university's bad conscience. But at least they can apply for student jobs as well. And how do you propose to make regular labour market to become as flexible as the student one? The prime reason for employment of students is the fact that they’re cheaper, because the state takes care of their social and health insurance.

Re: bald and grey: As I said - benefits cease when you’re 26. Regardless of whether you’ve graduated or not. So your argument is worthless in this respect.

Incentives are there precisely to make people go to university. I mean, some people would still go to university regardless of the incentives, but most people would be sort of indecided - it’s like that graph you cited during debate over at Carniola: When do you say “it simply isn’t worht it”. And belive me, if you’re faced with a social problem, you don’t exactly dwell the finer points of education and personal fulfillment.

Re: Izredni študenti. I know. They’re every university’s bad conscience. But at least they can apply for student jobs as well.

]]> By: Ležalnik pika Com http://www.pengovsky.com/2007/10/24/student-work-in-slovenia/#comment-28442 Ležalnik pika Com Thu, 25 Oct 2007 08:18:54 +0000 http://www.pengovsky.com/2007/10/24/student-work-in-slovenia/#comment-28442 :) again, people that study only for the benefits are people that study until they are bald and gray. Incentives should not be the reason for studying but just a little help along the way. I'm aware that students dont have the same backgrounds, so this help should only go to those that need it. The way to make employers stop employing students is either make labour market as flexible as student market or make student labour market as rigid as normal labour market. I can't see any of this happening in the near future, because making changes here means loosing political points. BTW, do you know there (it's a rethorical question:) ) are many students that pay tuition for their education and we don't hear a word from them? They are called "izredni študenti" :D :) again, people that study only for the benefits are people that study until they are bald and gray. Incentives should not be the reason for studying but just a little help along the way. I’m aware that students dont have the same backgrounds, so this help should only go to those that need it.
The way to make employers stop employing students is either make labour market as flexible as student market or make student labour market as rigid as normal labour market. I can’t see any of this happening in the near future, because making changes here means loosing political points.
BTW, do you know there (it’s a rethorical question:) ) are many students that pay tuition for their education and we don’t hear a word from them? They are called “izredni študenti” :D

]]> By: SLEEPING WITH PENGOVSKY » Blog Archives » Save The Pension Fund! http://www.pengovsky.com/2007/10/24/student-work-in-slovenia/#comment-28439 SLEEPING WITH PENGOVSKY » Blog Archives » Save The Pension Fund! Thu, 25 Oct 2007 07:36:53 +0000 http://www.pengovsky.com/2007/10/24/student-work-in-slovenia/#comment-28439 [...] « Previous [...] […] « Previous […]

]]> By: pengovsky http://www.pengovsky.com/2007/10/24/student-work-in-slovenia/#comment-28375 pengovsky Wed, 24 Oct 2007 15:02:46 +0000 http://www.pengovsky.com/2007/10/24/student-work-in-slovenia/#comment-28375 @dr. fil: Respect! :D @Ležalnik: Wrong! It seems that you assume that everyone has the same starting point when studying. As alcessa already noted, that is not so. You are right about one thing, though... I can totally imagine why people don't get a diploma earlier.... Because they would end up at an uneployement centre anyway. According to <a HREF="http://www.ess.gov.si/SLO/Dejavnost/Analize/2004/MladiDiplomanti.pdf" rel="nofollow">this</A>, most unemployed graduates are between 26 and 27 years old, meaning that they graduate only when they have to, because their incentives ran out. But you don't force people to study hard by taking away the incentives with which you made them start the studies <I>in the first place</I>. What is reqired is to promote employment of young people with little or no experience, and somehow make employers stop relying on student labour force. @dr. fil: Respect! :D

@Ležalnik: Wrong! It seems that you assume that everyone has the same starting point when studying. As alcessa already noted, that is not so.

You are right about one thing, though… I can totally imagine why people don’t get a diploma earlier…. Because they would end up at an uneployement centre anyway. According to this, most unemployed graduates are between 26 and 27 years old, meaning that they graduate only when they have to, because their incentives ran out.

But you don’t force people to study hard by taking away the incentives with which you made them start the studies in the first place. What is reqired is to promote employment of young people with little or no experience, and somehow make employers stop relying on student labour force.

]]> By: Ležalnik pika Com http://www.pengovsky.com/2007/10/24/student-work-in-slovenia/#comment-28372 Ležalnik pika Com Wed, 24 Oct 2007 14:44:50 +0000 http://www.pengovsky.com/2007/10/24/student-work-in-slovenia/#comment-28372 Things that I cited are incentives to have "status študenta" not to study harder :). They do make life easier for the students but they do not in any way push them to study hard and finish quickly, quite the opposite. And saying that people will not study if they do not have these benefits is ...well... I dont agree. People that would drop studies as a consequence to that are people that started just to get them. The reasons people should and do study are things like higher expected salary (so it does pay to study), personal satisfaction and fulfilment etc. And the average time for a slovenian student to get a diploma is higher than elsewhere (sorry, cant remember the source). Things that I cited are incentives to have “status študenta” not to study harder :). They do make life easier for the students but they do not in any way push them to study hard and finish quickly, quite the opposite. And saying that people will not study if they do not have these benefits is …well… I dont agree. People that would drop studies as a consequence to that are people that started just to get them. The reasons people should and do study are things like higher expected salary (so it does pay to study), personal satisfaction and fulfilment etc.
And the average time for a slovenian student to get a diploma is higher than elsewhere (sorry, cant remember the source).

]]>