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	<title>Comments on: Zares (a.k.a. ZSMS part II)</title>
	<link>http://www.pengovsky.com/2007/10/09/zares-aka-zsms-part-ii/</link>
	<description>sex and politics</description>
	<pubDate>Fri, 19 Mar 2010 00:19:19 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Full Disclosure &#124; SLEEPING WITH PENGOVSKY</title>
		<link>http://www.pengovsky.com/2007/10/09/zares-aka-zsms-part-ii/#comment-165193</link>
		<dc:creator>Full Disclosure &#124; SLEEPING WITH PENGOVSKY</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Jun 2009 13:37:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.pengovsky.com/2007/10/09/zares-aka-zsms-part-ii/#comment-165193</guid>
		<description>[...] politicans are expected to be forthcoming. When Golobič was elected president of Zares, pengovsky wrote a very cynical post, basically saying that there is no new politics, only old politics done in a new way. Golobič [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] politicans are expected to be forthcoming. When Golobič was elected president of Zares, pengovsky wrote a very cynical post, basically saying that there is no new politics, only old politics done in a new way. Golobič [&#8230;]</p>
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		<title>By: Dr. Filomena &#187; For Real in Croatia, Obama Could go to Mexico or Canada</title>
		<link>http://www.pengovsky.com/2007/10/09/zares-aka-zsms-part-ii/#comment-95837</link>
		<dc:creator>Dr. Filomena &#187; For Real in Croatia, Obama Could go to Mexico or Canada</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Aug 2008 17:47:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.pengovsky.com/2007/10/09/zares-aka-zsms-part-ii/#comment-95837</guid>
		<description>[...] elections (located at more or less the centre of the traditional political left-right spectrum) the Zares party (translated literally as &#8220;For Real&#8221;), has found an innovative way to advertise [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] elections (located at more or less the centre of the traditional political left-right spectrum) the Zares party (translated literally as &#8220;For Real&#8221;), has found an innovative way to advertise [&#8230;]</p>
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		<title>By: Nice One! &#124; SLEEPING WITH PENGOVSKY</title>
		<link>http://www.pengovsky.com/2007/10/09/zares-aka-zsms-part-ii/#comment-76381</link>
		<dc:creator>Nice One! &#124; SLEEPING WITH PENGOVSKY</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Jun 2008 14:36:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.pengovsky.com/2007/10/09/zares-aka-zsms-part-ii/#comment-76381</guid>
		<description>[...] bubble, to give politicians floating two inches above groung a bit of a reality check. And although I took them apart a couple of months ago for exactly the above reasons, Zares party did pull of a rather nice political stunt [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] bubble, to give politicians floating two inches above groung a bit of a reality check. And although I took them apart a couple of months ago for exactly the above reasons, Zares party did pull of a rather nice political stunt [&#8230;]</p>
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		<title>By: SLEEPING WITH PENGOVSKY &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Delo Poll: Janša trailing Pahor, both slump</title>
		<link>http://www.pengovsky.com/2007/10/09/zares-aka-zsms-part-ii/#comment-45857</link>
		<dc:creator>SLEEPING WITH PENGOVSKY &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Delo Poll: Janša trailing Pahor, both slump</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Feb 2008 02:35:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.pengovsky.com/2007/10/09/zares-aka-zsms-part-ii/#comment-45857</guid>
		<description>[...] polls, which cannot be acounted for just with a sharp drop in LDS&#8217;s support (Zares being primarily formed by renegade LDS [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] polls, which cannot be acounted for just with a sharp drop in LDS&#8217;s support (Zares being primarily formed by renegade LDS [&#8230;]</p>
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		<title>By: SLEEPING WITH PENGOVSKY &#187; Blog Archives &#187; Slovenia All Stars Draft</title>
		<link>http://www.pengovsky.com/2007/10/09/zares-aka-zsms-part-ii/#comment-41761</link>
		<dc:creator>SLEEPING WITH PENGOVSKY &#187; Blog Archives &#187; Slovenia All Stars Draft</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Jan 2008 14:45:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.pengovsky.com/2007/10/09/zares-aka-zsms-part-ii/#comment-41761</guid>
		<description>[...] Furthermore, Gaspari&#8217;s turning from one party to another is a huge blow to LDS which as of yesterday has little to show to the electorate save an admittedly attractive president (sorry, Borut!) and a star-studded but out-of-the-spotlight team of economists. This was more than obvious yesterday when party president Katarina Kresal said that &#8220;a change of government is in this country&#8217;s best interests but if thinking that one can rule alone is a huge mistake&#8221; (source). Which of course would be correct had LDS been at a par with the Social Democrats in the public opinion polls.  While I am the first to agree that Borut Pahor and his Social Democrats are quite likely to get too cocky too soon (probably even before the elections which might very well cost them the victory), the trend as it stands now is obvious: we are at the height of political consolidation, where both main parties (opposition SD and Janša&#8217;s rulling SDS) are in the market for any of the remaining players who would bring aditional votes, while the rest of the political spectrum are either left gaping, are overly self-involved or increasingly working on their platforms - case in point being Zares (remember them?) which is today held it&#8217;s platform conference. Oh, and by the way: Lea Iskra, assistant to Borut Pahor in his Brussels office, was working for the campaign of France Arhar, a conservative candidte for Ljubljana mayor supported by Janša&#8217;s coalition. I&#8217;m not saying that she shouldn&#8217;t switch jobs or even alleignances - I&#8217;m just trying to point out that people is general are feeling a showdown in imminent and most of them feel they need to pick sides. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] Furthermore, Gaspari&#8217;s turning from one party to another is a huge blow to LDS which as of yesterday has little to show to the electorate save an admittedly attractive president (sorry, Borut!) and a star-studded but out-of-the-spotlight team of economists. This was more than obvious yesterday when party president Katarina Kresal said that &#8220;a change of government is in this country&#8217;s best interests but if thinking that one can rule alone is a huge mistake&#8221; (source). Which of course would be correct had LDS been at a par with the Social Democrats in the public opinion polls.  While I am the first to agree that Borut Pahor and his Social Democrats are quite likely to get too cocky too soon (probably even before the elections which might very well cost them the victory), the trend as it stands now is obvious: we are at the height of political consolidation, where both main parties (opposition SD and Janša&#8217;s rulling SDS) are in the market for any of the remaining players who would bring aditional votes, while the rest of the political spectrum are either left gaping, are overly self-involved or increasingly working on their platforms - case in point being Zares (remember them?) which is today held it&#8217;s platform conference. Oh, and by the way: Lea Iskra, assistant to Borut Pahor in his Brussels office, was working for the campaign of France Arhar, a conservative candidte for Ljubljana mayor supported by Janša&#8217;s coalition. I&#8217;m not saying that she shouldn&#8217;t switch jobs or even alleignances - I&#8217;m just trying to point out that people is general are feeling a showdown in imminent and most of them feel they need to pick sides. [&#8230;]</p>
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		<title>By: Dr. Filomena &#187; Recycled Post: Zares - For Real</title>
		<link>http://www.pengovsky.com/2007/10/09/zares-aka-zsms-part-ii/#comment-27634</link>
		<dc:creator>Dr. Filomena &#187; Recycled Post: Zares - For Real</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Oct 2007 07:08:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.pengovsky.com/2007/10/09/zares-aka-zsms-part-ii/#comment-27634</guid>
		<description>[...] Reading Pengovsky&#8217;s post on the new party, Zares, I remembered having written a post reporting from one of this group&#8217;s events at the very start of the blog, before it acquired the whopping two or three readers it boasts now  so I thought why not recycle some of the old posts. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] Reading Pengovsky&#8217;s post on the new party, Zares, I remembered having written a post reporting from one of this group&#8217;s events at the very start of the blog, before it acquired the whopping two or three readers it boasts now  so I thought why not recycle some of the old posts. [&#8230;]</p>
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		<title>By: pengovsky</title>
		<link>http://www.pengovsky.com/2007/10/09/zares-aka-zsms-part-ii/#comment-26777</link>
		<dc:creator>pengovsky</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Oct 2007 08:45:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.pengovsky.com/2007/10/09/zares-aka-zsms-part-ii/#comment-26777</guid>
		<description>@GG: If we start nitpicking about finer points of a fledling democracy, then yes, there are more-than-subtle differences between Russian oligarchs, Croatian tycoons and Slovene "would-be oligarchs" (I will not use the term "old-boys", because it denotes a slightly different bunch of people). 

I do however maintain that economic and media power was concentrated in a closely knit network of a handful of individuals who were (be it by persuasion, by necessity or by acquaintance) heavily connected to LDS. 

We could go on &lt;I&gt;ad infinitum&lt;/I&gt; about the reproductive rate of elites in Slovenia or even about the "six-handshakes-theory", but the fact of the matter is that at its zenith LDS was basically omnipresent. At the very least it seemed so - and we both know that appearances are often much more difficult to overcome than actual problems. Case in point being this post of mine.

I do agree that LDS hit rock-bottom in early 2007 (and is making a rather rapid recovery, don't you think?), but the problems within the party started waaay before that - shortly after 2004 parliamentary elections, when Ljubljana branch of LDS split into two fractions. It all went downhill from there.

So - if you &lt;I&gt;really want to nitpick&lt;/I&gt; - I wrote that first came "(...)removal of LDS from power and its later near-demise. 

Not that Golobič stuck around to witness the demise, of course. As soon as he saw that the party was about to enter a downward spiral, he bugged out and kept to the sidelines until last Saturday when he became the top dog of the new party.(...)"

So first came the removal of power and then came the near demise which (writes I) you didn't stick around to see. And here you are, saying that you "&lt;I&gt;mucho stucked around for a long time (till the eve of 2004 election)"&lt;/I&gt;.

Which of course confirms that you left &lt;I&gt;before&lt;/I&gt; the demise of the party began. I just might have used a bit too colorful language and the meaning got lost.

I do concede that one could argue that the term "jumping ship" is not accurate enough, but to solve that one we would have to hold an entire debate on causes and effect of dissolution of LDS. So suffice it to say "a heterogenous group of prominent individuals saw where LDS was headed but was all of a sudden powerless to stop it". Which basically amounts to the same thing - it's just a matter of how you spin it.

But this really is nitpicking, no? I mean - you're right (and I don't think I said anything to the contrary) that at the end od the day it is all about quality of governing. That is where LDS sort of lost its track and became to self-involved, too arrogant and idea-less. Again, at the very least it seemed so from the outside.

And just as miracles were expected from the post-Drnovšek leaderships of LDS (Tone Rop, for all his qualities is no good at managing a crisis, whereas Jelko Kacin was simply beyond comprehension), miracles are now expected from Zares. I'm not saying you can't deliver - it's just a matter of whether you can deliver what people want. 

Perhaps I'm over-reaching here, but I do strongly believe that people want politics to stop snowing them with bullshit which &lt;I&gt;includes&lt;/I&gt; promises of politics done in a new way.

And that is the main quarrel I have Zares. Indeed ;)

As I said - I'm more than willing to give Zares the benefit of the doubt (not that it matters a &lt;a HREF="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hitchhiker%27s_Guide_to_the_Galaxy" rel="nofollow"&gt;pair of fetid dingo's kidneys&lt;/A&gt; what I do) and I eagerly await your political platform upon which I will be able to position you political continuum (although my scarce and possibly out of date info places Zares in the strongly liberal column)

But regarding the three consecutive mandates of LDS government: I never dismissed that as something unimportant. &lt;I&gt;Au-contraire!&lt;/I&gt; I think it was (politically speaking) an astonishing achievment, especially in the period of economic, social and political transition. It did, however, bring about a lot of political baggage which you have to deal with now.

I would disagree about George W. though... If he were to run again, he would face either a Clinton (a woman, at that!) or a black man whose middle name is Husein. 

But thanks for the compliments (and vice-versa, of course (&lt;i&gt;bows slightly&lt;/I&gt;) and especially thanks for link to the interview in Mladina. It was very insightful. I remembered that I've read it when it was published, but it takes on a whole new meaning today.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@GG: If we start nitpicking about finer points of a fledling democracy, then yes, there are more-than-subtle differences between Russian oligarchs, Croatian tycoons and Slovene &#8220;would-be oligarchs&#8221; (I will not use the term &#8220;old-boys&#8221;, because it denotes a slightly different bunch of people). </p>
<p>I do however maintain that economic and media power was concentrated in a closely knit network of a handful of individuals who were (be it by persuasion, by necessity or by acquaintance) heavily connected to LDS. </p>
<p>We could go on <i>ad infinitum</i> about the reproductive rate of elites in Slovenia or even about the &#8220;six-handshakes-theory&#8221;, but the fact of the matter is that at its zenith LDS was basically omnipresent. At the very least it seemed so - and we both know that appearances are often much more difficult to overcome than actual problems. Case in point being this post of mine.</p>
<p>I do agree that LDS hit rock-bottom in early 2007 (and is making a rather rapid recovery, don&#8217;t you think?), but the problems within the party started waaay before that - shortly after 2004 parliamentary elections, when Ljubljana branch of LDS split into two fractions. It all went downhill from there.</p>
<p>So - if you <i>really want to nitpick</i> - I wrote that first came &#8220;(&#8230;)removal of LDS from power and its later near-demise. </p>
<p>Not that Golobič stuck around to witness the demise, of course. As soon as he saw that the party was about to enter a downward spiral, he bugged out and kept to the sidelines until last Saturday when he became the top dog of the new party.(&#8230;)&#8221;</p>
<p>So first came the removal of power and then came the near demise which (writes I) you didn&#8217;t stick around to see. And here you are, saying that you &#8220;<i>mucho stucked around for a long time (till the eve of 2004 election)&#8221;</i>.</p>
<p>Which of course confirms that you left <i>before</i> the demise of the party began. I just might have used a bit too colorful language and the meaning got lost.</p>
<p>I do concede that one could argue that the term &#8220;jumping ship&#8221; is not accurate enough, but to solve that one we would have to hold an entire debate on causes and effect of dissolution of LDS. So suffice it to say &#8220;a heterogenous group of prominent individuals saw where LDS was headed but was all of a sudden powerless to stop it&#8221;. Which basically amounts to the same thing - it&#8217;s just a matter of how you spin it.</p>
<p>But this really is nitpicking, no? I mean - you&#8217;re right (and I don&#8217;t think I said anything to the contrary) that at the end od the day it is all about quality of governing. That is where LDS sort of lost its track and became to self-involved, too arrogant and idea-less. Again, at the very least it seemed so from the outside.</p>
<p>And just as miracles were expected from the post-Drnovšek leaderships of LDS (Tone Rop, for all his qualities is no good at managing a crisis, whereas Jelko Kacin was simply beyond comprehension), miracles are now expected from Zares. I&#8217;m not saying you can&#8217;t deliver - it&#8217;s just a matter of whether you can deliver what people want. </p>
<p>Perhaps I&#8217;m over-reaching here, but I do strongly believe that people want politics to stop snowing them with bullshit which <i>includes</i> promises of politics done in a new way.</p>
<p>And that is the main quarrel I have Zares. Indeed <img src='http://www.pengovsky.com/blog/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>As I said - I&#8217;m more than willing to give Zares the benefit of the doubt (not that it matters a <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hitchhiker%27s_Guide_to_the_Galaxy" onclick="javascript:pageTracker._trackPageview ('/outbound/en.wikipedia.org');">pair of fetid dingo&#8217;s kidneys</a> what I do) and I eagerly await your political platform upon which I will be able to position you political continuum (although my scarce and possibly out of date info places Zares in the strongly liberal column)</p>
<p>But regarding the three consecutive mandates of LDS government: I never dismissed that as something unimportant. <i>Au-contraire!</i> I think it was (politically speaking) an astonishing achievment, especially in the period of economic, social and political transition. It did, however, bring about a lot of political baggage which you have to deal with now.</p>
<p>I would disagree about George W. though&#8230; If he were to run again, he would face either a Clinton (a woman, at that!) or a black man whose middle name is Husein. </p>
<p>But thanks for the compliments (and vice-versa, of course (<i>bows slightly</i>) and especially thanks for link to the interview in Mladina. It was very insightful. I remembered that I&#8217;ve read it when it was published, but it takes on a whole new meaning today.</p>
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		<title>By: crni</title>
		<link>http://www.pengovsky.com/2007/10/09/zares-aka-zsms-part-ii/#comment-26756</link>
		<dc:creator>crni</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Oct 2007 04:35:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.pengovsky.com/2007/10/09/zares-aka-zsms-part-ii/#comment-26756</guid>
		<description>@GG I guess I will be your internet bitch for a second...I understand, new technology, getting old; in the good ol' days we actually stood around, waving flags. These days kids just sign petitions online and all that... The article by Igor Lavš can be found here:

http://www.finance.si/189340

IMHO 2002 was way too late to realize what a mess you guys have made. I have left the country in 2000.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@GG I guess I will be your internet bitch for a second&#8230;I understand, new technology, getting old; in the good ol&#8217; days we actually stood around, waving flags. These days kids just sign petitions online and all that&#8230; The article by Igor Lavš can be found here:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.finance.si/189340" onclick="javascript:pageTracker._trackPageview ('/outbound/www.finance.si');">http://www.finance.si/189340</a></p>
<p>IMHO 2002 was way too late to realize what a mess you guys have made. I have left the country in 2000.</p>
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		<title>By: GregorGolobič</title>
		<link>http://www.pengovsky.com/2007/10/09/zares-aka-zsms-part-ii/#comment-26730</link>
		<dc:creator>GregorGolobič</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Oct 2007 00:10:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.pengovsky.com/2007/10/09/zares-aka-zsms-part-ii/#comment-26730</guid>
		<description>@Pengovsky
hyperlink to my interview lost:
http://www.mladina.si/tednik/200203/clanek/golobic/

and - almost forget: Igor Lauš, Kdo se boji slovenskih tajkunov? Finance, 27.8.07, tiskana izdaja št. 162/2007. Sorry, no link (guest only) – just the old fashioned data...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Pengovsky<br />
hyperlink to my interview lost:<br />
<a href="http://www.mladina.si/tednik/200203/clanek/golobic/" onclick="javascript:pageTracker._trackPageview ('/outbound/www.mladina.si');">http://www.mladina.si/tednik/200203/clanek/golobic/</a></p>
<p>and - almost forget: Igor Lauš, Kdo se boji slovenskih tajkunov? Finance, 27.8.07, tiskana izdaja št. 162/2007. Sorry, no link (guest only) – just the old fashioned data&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: GregorGolobič</title>
		<link>http://www.pengovsky.com/2007/10/09/zares-aka-zsms-part-ii/#comment-26729</link>
		<dc:creator>GregorGolobič</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Oct 2007 00:02:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.pengovsky.com/2007/10/09/zares-aka-zsms-part-ii/#comment-26729</guid>
		<description>@Pengovsky
There is a huge difference between would-be oligarchs and real ones. The same is true when it comes to  autocracy and  the Drnovšek's »regime«. The battle “for the feelings of many people” was lost long time ago (it is kinda lost  by definition), but it’s crucial for the political scientist to differ between quantitative and qualitative distinction of  both regimes.  The attitude I have mentioned yesterday is the criteria of  other quality. And, yes, Drnovšek warned about the problem at the end of January 2002 when the old LDS was at the historical height - that is just the time when the notorious three-breasted sirens sing their lure songs most captivatingly.
Not btw: One week before in an interview for Mladina I had made a prognosis, that LDS have passed its zenith. So it’s not true that “Golobič, (…) as soon as he saw that the party was about to enter a downward spiral, he bugged out and kept to the sidelines (…).” I mucho stucked around for a long time (till the eve of  2004 election). Equally incorrect is the allegation “(…)that the core of the party /i.e. Zares/ are political veterans who jumped ship when (as I already said) LDS was entering a downward spiral.” No, at the beginning of 2007 that ship was laying down on a hard bottom, claiming that the miracle of good-old-days is soon to come…just don’t touch anything, cos it’s perfect!
Finally: three consecutive terms are not so easy to dismiss. Slovenia is not USA; Presidential elections  are not the same as parliamentary ones (especially in our very “sophisticated” version of proportional system…); and no Rove can spin GWB one more turn – no matter of  the constitutional limits.
Compliments, though.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Pengovsky<br />
There is a huge difference between would-be oligarchs and real ones. The same is true when it comes to  autocracy and  the Drnovšek&#8217;s »regime«. The battle “for the feelings of many people” was lost long time ago (it is kinda lost  by definition), but it’s crucial for the political scientist to differ between quantitative and qualitative distinction of  both regimes.  The attitude I have mentioned yesterday is the criteria of  other quality. And, yes, Drnovšek warned about the problem at the end of January 2002 when the old LDS was at the historical height - that is just the time when the notorious three-breasted sirens sing their lure songs most captivatingly.<br />
Not btw: One week before in an interview for Mladina I had made a prognosis, that LDS have passed its zenith. So it’s not true that “Golobič, (…) as soon as he saw that the party was about to enter a downward spiral, he bugged out and kept to the sidelines (…).” I mucho stucked around for a long time (till the eve of  2004 election). Equally incorrect is the allegation “(…)that the core of the party /i.e. Zares/ are political veterans who jumped ship when (as I already said) LDS was entering a downward spiral.” No, at the beginning of 2007 that ship was laying down on a hard bottom, claiming that the miracle of good-old-days is soon to come…just don’t touch anything, cos it’s perfect!<br />
Finally: three consecutive terms are not so easy to dismiss. Slovenia is not USA; Presidential elections  are not the same as parliamentary ones (especially in our very “sophisticated” version of proportional system…); and no Rove can spin GWB one more turn – no matter of  the constitutional limits.<br />
Compliments, though.</p>
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